19.10.07
Remember Remember the 5th of November
With Bonfire night coming up, I’ve been teaching my daughter the meaning of it all. In a nutshell: Guy Fawkes was a Catholic terrorist, who plotted to blow up Houses of Parliament and King James I, the Protestant King of England, on November 5th 1605.
They were caught when someone tipped off a Catholic Member of Parliament, Lord Monteagle (probably his brother in law, Francis Tresham) and the letter of warning was handed in. A search of Parliament discovered Guy Fawkes with 20 barrels of hidden gun powder.
The story became public knowledge and fell into folk law with the Guy Fawkes poem: Remember Remember, the fifth of November:
Remember, remember the Fifth of November,
the Gunpowder Treason and Plot,I see no reason why Gunpowder Treason should ever be forgot.
Guy Fawkes, t’was his intent to blow up King and Parliament.Three score barrels were laid below to prove old England’s overthrow;
By God’s mercy he was catch’d with a dark lantern and lighted match.Holloa boys, holloa boys, let the bells ring.
Holloa boys, holloa boys, God save the King!Hip hip hoorah!
However there is a second verse, one that is totally unsuitable for this Politically Correct society in which we live. To understand it, you must consider the religious battle between Protestants and the Catholics which has been going on for centuries. Anyway, here it is, I’ll let you decide:
A penny loaf to feed the Pope
A farthing o’ cheese to choke him.A pint of beer to rinse it down.
A faggot of sticks to burn him.Burn him in a tub of tar.
Burn him like a blazing star.Burn his body from his head.
Then we’ll say ol’ Pope is dead.Hip hip hoorah!
Hip hip hoorah hoorah!
Severe isn’t it? So what do you think, do you believe that the children of today should be taught such a politically incorrect poem? What’s takes the priority here: historical accuracy, or censoring religious intolerance?
Comment and let me know if you think I should teach this 2nd verse to my daughter or not?
Soraya said,
November 5, 2007 at 12:39 pm
There are many poems and nursery rhymes that in this day I don’t really want to hear my 5 year old singing. My particular pet hate is Goosey Gander where an old man gets thrown down the stairs for not saying his prayers. I think the best way to deal with violent messages in folklore etc is to explain what these rhymes etc tell us about the time and then stress that things aren’t the same today. At the end of the day I don’t believe that children take these sort of things to heart. I don’t know anyone for instance who’s thrown a pussy down a well. My daughters favourite film at age 2 was Van Helsing (too violent you may think) but to her killing the monsters was no more real than Scooby Doo. Bambi on the other hand gave her nightmares because she could relate to the wee beast and understood how afriad he was when his mother was killed.
George Orwell 1984 said,
August 27, 2008 at 9:19 am
Censoring? Hiding from the truth and what really happened? Are you serious? It is people with your ideaology that will ruin this society/world we live. Hiding from the truth will not solve the problem, only make it worse. Read George Orwell 1984 and you will understand where society is headed. Censoring… I can’t believe everyone jumps to the idea of censoring. It is almost a laughable idea if you think about it. Let’s all hide from the truth so we can feel better about ourselves because we are afraid of of reality. Sad honestly
Colin McNulty said,
August 29, 2008 at 11:18 am
I agree that censorship is bad, but you didn’t address the key point: is that a suitable verse to teach a child of 7? I’m not saying never teach it and strike it from history, but at what age do you choose to unfetter truth?
m said,
September 22, 2008 at 8:04 pm
And of now, with the film V for Vendetta, Guy Fawkes is a symbol for righteous opposition to a corrupt government. Never be forgot indeed!
Guy Fawkes Fireworks Night is Coming said,
October 27, 2008 at 8:45 pm
[...] love this time of year, well the closet pyromaniac in me does. I wrote about the Guy Fawkes night poem: Remember, Remember, the 5th of November last year, which gives some interesting insights into the political back drop of this festival. [...]
_someone_ said,
November 5, 2008 at 6:28 pm
the first section is very good but the second section is very unsuitable, as if a song like that was sang about a muslim leader u would be considered rasist.
and to the person who said “the truth” the second verse is nothing to do with what happened.
me said,
September 8, 2009 at 3:59 am
I would like to say a few words regarding this matter.
One, i am a firm believer in the stopping of Censorship in modern society.
Secondly, i would like to say that i have written many papers, essays, and term papers on Guy Fawkes and how he influenced modern society.
I am not claiming to be an expert on the matter, but from what i have read, it is alright for a child to learn this saying. I must also agree with Orwell’s novel 1984. “WE” as a society have been corrupting our ways, to a point beyond repair. We are hiding truths from people who it should not be hidden from. those people, are our society… bound to the life of conformity.
The movie V for Vendetta, can not just be taken at a face value rate… after watching it several times, one can see that it is not about righteous revolution, but it is about the divine right to actually “SEE” what the world is, not what the media portrays it as. I will always remember the 5th of November, mainly because on this day, history was made… it showed that abiding by conformist ways only ruins our existence as human beings.
The smartest animal is what we are called, but we are ignorant, arrogant creatures, no better than the smartest bird. We even cage that bird, because it has the gift of flight, don’t you see how far we have drifted from the ideas of a Utopia? from the ideas of a “safe life”
rkk said,
September 17, 2009 at 8:48 pm
I am contemplating using this for a year 9 assembly at school. (I am a teacher).
I see no reason why students should not be taught the story, and the poem for this from an educational point of view..
I will be teaching the entire poem- Im not creating a racial debate here or influencing students to go and kill the pope! its a piece of history. There is no need to hide it..
Colin McNulty said,
September 17, 2009 at 9:24 pm
I happen to agree. However (and I should have made this clearer in my original post) that my daughter at the time was just 7. Year 9 is what, 14 years old? I agree they are a suitable audience, but 7? I’m not so sure. But then where is the line drawn?
Dr. Mercury said,
November 4, 2009 at 12:21 pm
First off, thanks for posting the entire poem. I didn’t even KNOW there was more to it than the first few lines until I saw some reference to it on some site. It took another four links to find it here. (Actually, as these things go, I was seriously disappointed in the insipid, simplistic second verse. Are we sure both were written by the same person?)
As to your question, the commenters who posted about “censorship” completely missed the point. This isn’t a question of “censoring” something, it’s a question of at what age is it proper to introduce the concepts of murder and assassination to a child? Or, put another way, at what age do you destroy a child’s innocence?
I’d break it down two ways:
- Yes, 7 years old is too young to learn that if you don’t agree with someone, the best avenue is to burn off his head. And, even if one doesn’t believe in the Catholic god, advocating that you kill the POPE — of all people — is certainly over the edge.
- With that said, however, there’s certainly a way you could relate the poem to a child and not warp them psycholgically. It could be told with a lot of vocal and body expression, like telling a ghost story to kids. “…burn him like a blazing star — ooooh!”, said with a twinkle in your eye.
The interesting thing, as one of the commenters pointed out, is that the “no reason…it should ever be forgot” line has turned around over the years, as evidenced by the movie. At least Fawkes TRIED to do something about a repressive government — as referred to the droning sheep who sit by and just take it.
Here’s a great line from Fawkes’ Wikipedia entry:
“However, his reputation has since undergone a rehabilitation, and today he is often toasted as, ‘The last man to enter Parliament with honourable intentions.’”
If we had a Guy Fawkes here in America, we’d be saying the same thing about Congress.
Thanks again for the interesting post,
Doc
Colin McNulty said,
November 4, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Hi Doc and thanks for the great comment. I’m glad someone realised I wasn’t asking about censorship, but as you said, about the age of innocence.
I think time heals the wounds of terrorism, especially as the cause he was fighting for is no longer relevant. I wonder if in 400 years, Osama Bin Laden say, will be viewed in a different light? Who can say.